By David Ettinger
Strongly Held
Just because a theory is strongly held by faithful Bible-believers, does not make it correct.
Case in point is a theory regarding salvation. This theory usually arises in discussing election, the doctrine that God “elects” those who will be His long before they are born.
In trying to explain how this works, quite a few believers I know hold to the notion that God knew which individuals would accept Christ if presented to them and which wouldn’t. In other words, God determines “election” on those WHO BY THEIR OWN MERIT AND LOGIC would accept Jesus Christ upon hearing the Gospel.
Scripture, however, makes no such claim, and this popular notion is biblically false.
Primary Verse
The primary verse which argues against the above notion is John 6:44: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.” (The last part, which I won’t discuss here, refers to the resurrection).
This verse is so precise, so clear, and so pointed that it leaves no room for the man-initiated sentiments of those who believe individuals can choose Christ based SOLELY on their own wisdom.
John 6:44 makes indisputably clear that God is the one who initiates the process of individuals coming to Christ, and without His initiation, NO ONE can come to Christ. The main idea of John 6:44 is that human beings are so entrapped in the muck of sin and unbelief that unless God reaches out first and draws them, they are hopelessly separated from Him.
Another way of saying it is that left to oneself, no individual would ever seek God or Christ.
This does not negate free will: All people have the right to accept or reject Christ – but no one accepts Him without God’s pull.
So how does God determine “election” – those who will be saved? I have no idea, but I can say based not only on John 6:44 but on the overall tenor of Scripture, that He does not determine it according to those who would accept the Gospel if presented with it outside of His leading. It’s beyond the scope of human possibility.
Definitely a lively topic! What do you think?
Bruce
February 27, 2020
Interesting. Now to ask you a question David. How does this verse tie in with John 6:44?
Romans 8:29-30 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
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dettinger47
February 27, 2020
Hi Bruce. It fits in perfectly and makes my point, that man can’t save himself. Note in the Romans 8:29-30 how God does all the work … the word “He” is used 9 times.
Yes, these two passages fit perfectly together.
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Bruce
February 27, 2020
I agree that it is not via our own merit or logic but (don’t you just love that word), there is an act of our will involved, whereby at some point, we turn and inquire of God. To me, there is no question as to whether man in and of himself can bring about his own salvation, even as it applies to coming under the Lordship of Jesus. But at some point, we of our own free will, do have to open that door. Once we do that opening, God literally takes over and there indeed may appear to be times when we turn away, sometimes temporarily or permanently. I think this is the general rule but there are also instances where God in His sovereignty also directly intervenes, according to His own purposes, but I think these are instances of exceptions. I see both in the Bible, freewill and unconditional election. I do not adhere to Calvinism because I do believe that man’s freewill, generally speaking, is involved. The sequence within Romans 8:29-30 is foreknowledge, predestined, conformed to the image of His Son. Those who are predestined are called and accordingly justified and ultimately glorified, in Jesus. The question, for me, is not whether man can save himself, even with regard to accepting the grace of salvation that is freely given, the question is whether man has ANY part whatsoever, in regard to the election of God within humanity. Calvinism tells us that the election is totally unconditional due to the totally depraved and fallen nature of humanity. God’s word clearly tells us that it is not God’s will that any should perish and Jesus says, “behold I stand at the door and knock”. If we open that door . . . Is clearly an option that is given to us. Does God know if we will open that door (foreknowledge), yes He does.
Short story is I see both, conditional election and unconditional election. Could I be wrong in my understanding? Definitely a possibility. I hope others comment, looking forward to the responses, along with your’s of course! Blessings David.
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dettinger47
February 27, 2020
Thank you, Bruce. I appreciate your insights.
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douglcfl
February 27, 2020
Thank you Dave this is very timely for me as I am preparing to teach a series of lessons on Calvinism. I do not believe the concept of unconditional election is consistent with scripture as it negates free will. Unconditional election in Calvinism is the antithesis of the Calvanist doctrine of a limited atonement. Limited atonement says that Jesus work on the cross only atoned for the elect so those who are not the elect could never be saved. Unconditional election says that God’s election is not conditioned on a person’s willingness to receive the gift of salvation that’s where the concept of irresistible grace comes in. The Calvanist says that when the Lord calls someone to be saved that calling as irresistible. So in effect no one has a choice. The lost cannot choose God because they are depraved and the elect cannot reject him. We are a race of robots doing what we were programmed to do through election and our eternal destiny is pre determined.
I think the doctrine of Calvanism makes a loving personal relationship with Christ an impossibility. For love that is not freely given is not love at all.
Thank you for the great article.
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dettinger47
February 27, 2020
Thank you, Doug, for the great insights. It’s too bad that some people have hard and vast views on issues that are too complicated to fully understand.
I see the election/free will issue as something we cannot fully comprehend because of our finite minds. Because God’s mind is infinite, it makes perfect sense to Him.
I think your penultimate sentence says it best: “I think the doctrine of Calvanism makes a loving personal relationship with Christ an impossibility. For love that is not freely given is not love at all.” Amen!
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douglcfl
February 28, 2020
I agree it is something that is well beyond our ability to fully understand.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Romans:11:33
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jaccor
February 27, 2020
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
(Jn 15:16)
I don’t know my friend; I may be wrong, but this tells me that it is God who always does the choosing
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dettinger47
February 27, 2020
I’m with you. Thank you, jaccor.
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mrsmariposa2014
February 27, 2020
This has long been a question I have heard both ends of the spectrum on. I honestly have struggled to reconcile the thoughts of free will/election. I definitely lean much more towards free will, but, knowing God knows all and, therefore knows who will receive Him, as well as those who won’t, it boggles my mind a bit. All that said, I certainly agree it’s not based at all on our merit. We have not one wit of such on our own!
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dettinger47
February 27, 2020
I’m with you, Marisa. The whole issue of election/free will boggles the mind!
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The Son Of God
February 27, 2020
Predestination and election can be easily understood with the following illustration: Bob Smith lives in Tyler, Texas. He has been invited to attend a banquet in Shreveport, Louisiana. The host for the banquet sent Bob a ticket for a seat on a bus scheduled to leave Tyler at 9:30 a.m. on a Wednesday and arrive in Shreveport at 12:00 noon the same day-just in time for the party.
The destination of the bus has been predetermined. As soon as Bob steps onto the bus, he becomes a participant in this predetermined trip. His ticket assures him of a seat on the bus. His destination is certain.
However, if Bob throws away his ticket before departure, or if he gets off the bus between Tyler and Shreveport, he will not arrive at the destination originally intended for him.
The same is true of the predetermined journey God has set before us. If we use the free “ticket” He has given to us, get aboard the “bus” to the Kingdom, and stay on the bus until it arrives, we will arrive at our proper destination. But if we get off the “bus” before it reaches its destination, we will not enter the Kingdom. Or, if we throw away the “ticket” before boarding, we will forfeit our “seat” on the bus and lose the privilege of participating in the predetermined journey.
The host of the banquet invited many, offering them free tickets, but many of them declined the offer. The only ones finally chosen for participation in the festivities were those who made the trip and showed up for the banquet.
Divine election is no different. God chooses those who choose Him. Many are invited, but those finally chosen for participation in the Kingdom are those who accept God’s provisions for salvation. Jesus Christ is the Elect One chosen from the foundation of the world (Isaiah 42:1; 1 Peter 1:20). He is the Way into the Kingdom of God (John 14:6). When we accept Him, we are “in Christ,” and become participants in His death and resurrection (Romans 6:311; 2 Corinthians 4:14). Similarly, by joining ourselves to the Elect One, becoming members of His Body, we become participants in His election.
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dettinger47
February 27, 2020
Thank you for the illustration. Appreciate it.
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thad333
April 27, 2020
Hi The Son Of God,
Do you believe we are ALL offered free tickets and given the choice to attend the meal? Many calvinists appear to ‘re-translate’ the word ALL. The idea, as I understand it, is that ALL speaks of ALL people without DISTINCTION (regardless of race, position, status, office) but not ALL without EXCEPTION (not open to ALL people).
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The Son Of God
April 27, 2020
If God has already elected those who are going to heaven, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God’s path?
Your traditional Calvinist would proclaim, “Because God told us so!” But if God has already elected those who will be going to heaven, no amount of influence from Christians will change who is elected or not. Evangelism may be the means of how God saves the elect, but our conscience decision to not evangelize will not affect the elect.
The interesting counter-argument would be when Calvinists say to non-Calvinists, “But why bother evangelizing… God already knows if a particular person will ever accept the message or not.” However, foreknowledge does not imply predestination, and God transcends time.
If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family. Basically, God has already predestined the events and no appealing to God will likely change his mind- it has already been predestined and cannot be changed.
If God predestined everything, then God created sin.
This is where Calvinists disagree among themselves. There are several camps; some that believe every little detail has been predestined, those who believe that God predestined all major events (including salvation), and those who believe that God only predestines those who will be saved. I suppose this point would address the first camp; If indeed God did predestine every little thing, then God did create sin. He caused man to act a specific way knowing in advance what it would lead to.
If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant.
If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot be faulted for his sins.
If God predestined everything, then there is no such thing as randomness. (Now that’s an interesting research topic..)
If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be damned!
This concept is called double-predestination. The logic is rather simple: if God only allows the elect to be saved, and God predestined the elect, then by default, God predestined everyone else who is not elect to be eternally condemned.
Most Calvinists believe it, but there are quite a few who don’t. Thomas Aquinas’ view was that God does not in fact damn those whose inherent sin would normally be condemning; God simply “passes over” those who he chose to not predestine. While this view is also somewhat arrogant, (how arrogant it is for us to believe we were predestined while our neighbor might not be), it simply doesn’t make sense. The bible clearly states otherwise. (never mind that little verse that says “whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life”)
Jesus died for everyone, not just the elect.
Calvinists would point out verses such as John 10:11, Acts 20:28, and John 15:13-14, which states that Jesus died for his friends. However, Jesus promptly then states that we are his friends if we obey his commands. Clearly, though, Jesus died for everyone. Verses decribe Jesus as the savior of the world, the savior of all men, and etc. Specifically, 1 John 2:2, which states that “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
Once-saved-always-saved is a farce.
One only has to read the very last two verses of James (James 5:19-20) to see why. “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. ”
Calvinists typically don’t have a response to verses like these other than to falsely argue that “well, the sinner must not have ever really been born from above to begin with.”
A bit of common sense – Don’t get lost in all the fancy theological footwork as Calvinists dance around with all kinds of long drawn out explanations, and word parsing to the point that when they are done you may forget what the original statement was. That is a dead giveaway right there something is wrong. I know there are some things in the bible that are hard to understand but when it comes to Calvinism things can really get lost in the fog. Anytime one begins to delve into the eternal with a finite mind it can seem like the cerebral circuits will blow. It is common for people who call themselves Calvinists to discuss this topic of election but have done little study. Like most people in church these days they just parrot and regurgitate what they got from a preacher, teacher, or a book. I think most people would be better off just not talking about the subject, lest their ignorance is seen proceeding from them.
It is not unfeasible for someone to be whole-heartedly devoted to God for a majority of their lifetime and then suddenly snap and turn totally against God in his heart. For example, suppose Billy Graham were to all of a sudden denounce God and start worshiping Satan. Calvinists would suggest that Billy Graham must not have ever have been saved whereas any other rational person would say that he once was a great man of faith whose heart was totally devoted to God but then suddenly snapped.
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thad333
April 28, 2020
You make really excellent points. Can you recommend good resources for reading, challenging the calvinist opinion?
Thanks
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The Son Of God
April 28, 2020
https://www.hopperscrossingchristianchurch.com/2019/08/20/why-are-calvinists-afraid-to-answer-simple-straightforward-questions/
https://www.timefortruth.co.uk/errors-of-calvinism/
http://markallansmusings.blogspot.com/2018/03/questions-for-calvinists.html
http://www.answers.org/theology/calvinism.html
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thad333
April 28, 2020
Many thanks.
Have you tried Soteriology 101 – website and YouTube. He’s an ex- Reformed Pastor, now Free Will.
James White loathes him because he left the Reformed faith and constantly chases down for debates…which White constantly loses.
https://soteriology101.com/
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=soteriology+101
https://www.facebook.com/soteriology101
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dettinger47
April 28, 2020
Thad, you may want to visit Son of God’s website and continue your discussion there. I don’t mind moderating, but you may find a more direct path there. 🌝
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thad333
April 28, 2020
Thanks, David.
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thad333
April 28, 2020
Would you have a link?
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dettinger47
April 28, 2020
Here you go: https://4jesus.site/
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The Son Of God
April 29, 2020
Thanks!1
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thad333
April 28, 2020
The Son Of God, As I read through your comments, I noted this sentence, “If God predestined everything, then God created sin.” It’s one that Calvinists would challenge, but this is effectively what Calvinism amounts to. It reminded me of a very short video, when James White – the Pope/Archbishop of Calvinism – defends Calvinism, where even child abuse and rape is considered beneficial and positive, IF it’s been sanctioned by God. He beliefs that HIS version of God’s sovereignty would promote suffering and punishment…to glorify God!!
The very short video is included to demonstrate that this isn’t taken out of context. I included this video to demonstrate this point on a hard-line Calvinist site, and the person deleted it.
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Sonrisa (Crissy)
February 28, 2020
The conversion of Lydia is a good example of God “opening”the heart. Acts 16.
God is Sovereign in all things including salvation. Human responsibility plays a part. These can only be reconciled in God.
I know that God saved me. I had nothing to do with it. All the Glory to my Saviour.
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dettinger47
February 28, 2020
Amen. Well said, Crissy.
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Lisa Beth
February 28, 2020
Very sensitive issue David, bc there’s a vested interest in figuring in man’s choice and will. Those of us who have unsaved family members want to believe and interpret scripture broader so a “decision for Christ” can be made even on a deathbed.
I’m with you, scripture is clear and repetitive with this teaching.
Nonetheless, we must preach, uphold the truth, and quicken those called, elected sheep to our great Shepherd.
Press on brother!
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dettinger47
February 28, 2020
I agree, Lisa Beth. In other words, when we share the Gospel, such issues as Predestination and Election shouldn’t even enter our minds. We need to present the Gospel as God brings opportunity to us and let Him do the rest!
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heavensreef
February 28, 2020
David……agree with all you said…..especially how no one comes to GOD without HIS “pull”. We all were stupid sheep who needed a Savior FIRST! Thank you for writing about this!!!
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dettinger47
February 28, 2020
Thank you, Maxine.
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